US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton wins popular vote

Barone crunches some numbers over at USN&WR.  Sorry for the brief diary, but I can't say it better than he did, just wanted to be sure that people saw this interesting story.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/ 3/28/projection-clinton-wins-popular-vot e-obama-wins-delegate-count.html

Key points in his predictions:
1)    He predicts Clinton will win popular vote/Obama delegate tally
2)    He predicts also that Obama will be behind in the popular vote, even without tallying Florida and Michigan (interesting)
3)    With each of the upcoming 10 electoral events "She would be getting closer to the nomination, not farther away."
4)    He also takes a good look at what each of their state primary/cauces wins means for the electoral college

Which can also be seen here

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Ob ama/Maps/Mar30.html

Not pretty for Obama.

Barone: "My projections don't leave much room for a cascade of superdelegates to Obama."

Check it out.



Display:


Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (2.00 / 2)

Barone is really smart, but some projections are rather too optimistic; such as 20 point win for her in MT, SD, PA and even larger in WV, KY and a 10 point in IN and loss in OR and NC by 10 and win in PR by 30.

Even without those optimistic projections, I still think that she pulls up an upset by winning the popular vote.


by American1989 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:00:14 PM EST

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (none / 0)

WHAT you don't think Hillary will take PA by 20!

you don't think she will win South Dakota by 20!

come on! obviously those stats are based in reality!

it is now 11:12 am central, this should be rec listed by 11:32am central (allow longer times since its sunday, a slow blog day)


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:12:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No doubt. (2.00 / 1)

Barone's scenario is wildly optimistic for Clinton, but this is what some people want to hear.

I don't see this scenario happening, nor is there any reason to expect it when it assumes far better numbers than she's getting either nationally or in state polls, but for the faith-based community, it will be enough.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Many GOP voters still have NEVER HEARD HILLARY OUT (2.00 / 4)

But when they do, I think many will swing to her.

McCain is just too much a representative of the failed ECONOMIC policies of Bush and the past...

That is THE CRUCIAL ISSUE.. and Hillary wins on it BY FAR.


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:54:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (none / 0)

20 point wins in IN and PA.  A 40 point win in WV?

I'm willing to bet anyone on this board that Obama will win IN +20, PA +20 and WV + 40.  Any takers?

And don't even get me started on MT and SD + 20.

Yes if Clinton wins every state by stunningly huge margins, she'll be the nominee.  There's no argument there.  The question is what's the case for those margins.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:09:23 PM EST

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (none / 0)

The only state where she's pulled a 60/40 margin so far was Arkansas, if I remember correctly, so these predictions are pretty divorced from reality.  Sure, it COULD happen but it's an extremely remote possibility.  And even with those predictions, she would only hold a 100,000 vote margin in the popular vote.  If anything, taht underscores just how significant a challenge she faces.  


by HSTruman on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:11:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ha! (2.00 / 1)

A 20 point margin in Indiana??????  Right next to Illinois, Indiana?  Barone is drinking this foxnews kool-aid.  I'll never take him seriously again if he's printing this b.s.


Bitter voter for change.
by Hope08 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:10:58 PM EST

Re: Ha! (2.00 / 2)

Illinois and IN dont really have muvh to do with one another. There wont be much "hometown" support.

Im not saying there wont be support, but not because hes a Senator from IL.


by PegLeg on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:42:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: (none / 0)

A 20 point win in MT, SD, and PA?  Better than 20 in WV, KY, and PR?  Obama squeaks by with 10 point wins only in NC and OR?  

I think that his statement at the end is certainly worth noting, and is likely prophetic:

"Of course my projections could just be plain wrong. Clinton could win Pennsylvania by an unimpressive margin on April 22 and get clocked in Indiana as well as North Carolina on May 6. Then you might see a cascade of superdelegates toward Obama, and the race might effectively be over."


by a gunslinger on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:12:24 PM EST

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (none / 0)

She will be lucky if she gets more than +10 in PA.


McCain: The Past, Obama: The Future
by KathyM on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:14:04 PM EST

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: (2.00 / 1)

I did check it out, and Barone gives Clinton a predicted 20% advantage in PA and Indiana (i.e. 60/40 over Obama), 40% advantage in West Virgina, 30% in Kentucky, and 30% in Puerto Rico, and 20% in South Dakota and Montana, while giving Obama only a 10% edge in NC and Oregon.  

Pardon me, but (as Barone half-admits) this is wildly optimistic in favor of Clinton.  Would the diarist like to offer odds on the above actually happening?  

And for the record Michael Barone is a talented writer but a terrible prognasticator.  He had the Reps keeping both the Senate AND the House in 2006.  More evidence of HRC getting the love from conservative pundits.  


by Kensingtonbill on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:16:09 PM EST

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (none / 0)

His estimate does not include caucus states, which if you are using the popular vote as a measure you cannot ignore 1/3 of the country


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:18:37 PM EST

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (none / 0)

lol you really believe that? on this site?

caucuses aren't democratic and the people who go to them don't count. no literally look at his totals he doesn't even count them

the only thing this tells me is this.

if you have to use numbers that aren't likely to occur, it probably means Clinton can't win the popular vote either. meaning she has no chance at the nomination.

now if they could use realistic numbers, like say a 8-12 point win for Hillary in PA

THEN those conclusions could be believed or discussed.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:21:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (2.00 / 1)

I think Obama would have still won states like Kansas, Wyoming, etc... but not by the margins he did.  I'm just saying this report is a little one-sided if it suggest we count Mi/Fl but does not present the hypothetical that caucus states be counted.

Fact is, last fall the Clinton campaign said this race is about momentum... they'd sweep the early states.

After Iowa they released a memo saying it was a delegate race.

After Mar. 5th they said it was about "Big-States"

After Obama's Caucus sweeps they said it was about Primary States

After losing all those arguments it is about a amorphously calculated popular vote.

Since Day-One the Obama campaign has said this is a delegate race, and they'd play every where by the rules set out... this is just the Clinton campaigns latest step toward unreality


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And if it is a delegate race (2.00 / 3)

And the "popular votes" are less than 1.5% apart (including Obama's extra margin from Dems for a Day and Illinois)...
And enough superdelegates assess Sen Obama's background and behaviors without the rose-colored glasses that the MSM hoodwinked them into donning  ... and realize that Clinton is indeed the better candidate to lead the Democratic party into and beyond the elections, then the Obama camp shouldn't cry foul. Right? That's what the Ha! should be about.
by pan230 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:20:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kos has called caucuses undemocratic for (2.00 / 2)

years.  It has nothing to do with "this site".  Because kos runs a blog, it's all documented. So trying to pin that idea on a subset of supporters defies Kos' own writings.


by Molee on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kos has called caucuses undemocratic for (2.00 / 1)

But it doesn't matter who calls them undemocratic. A lot of people think caucuses are undemocratic and a lot of people think the electoral college are undemocratic. Until we change the system those opinions mean nothing.

Besides we don't really live in a direct democracy. We live in a representative democracy or a republic. If it was a direct democracy then the popular vote would be the deciding factor. But it never has been and talking about the popular vote doesn't get you anywhere. The U.S. has never determined elections that way.

by Becky G on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good reason for the primary process to go on (2.00 / 2)

DNC Plan was to have primary till Jun 3 so let it go on! Media and blogs, don't think that your voice is important than people's!


by dtysaint on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:20:00 PM EST

Re: Good reason for the primary process to go on (none / 0)

"bite me"?  

I don't agree with Leahy, myself, but for the love of Pete... "bite me".

You shouldn't be very proud of yourself.


by a gunslinger on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:32:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good reason for the primary process to go on (2.00 / 1)

Leahy has heard worse from Dick Cheney :)


Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.
by edparrot on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:09:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Want to bet then? (2.00 / 1)

Let's take IN and WV.  The projection is Clinton + 20 in IN and Clinton + 40 in WV.  

If Clinton matches or exceeds one of those margins.  I will recommend every diary you write for the week following the WV vote.  If she gets or exceeds that margin in both of those states, I will recommend every diary you write for a week following the WV vote and write a non-sarcastic diary calling for Obama to concede.

On the other hand, if Clinton can't match either of those margins (so I'd need both to win), you recommend one diary of mine, titled, "Universal lost the bet."

I'm giving you incredibly favorable terms here.  Are you willing to accept them or do you too think that these are ridiculously slanted projections?


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:30:40 PM EST

Re: Want to bet then? (none / 0)

Well it's good to know that not even you think that those are realistic projections ;)


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:29:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (2.00 / 2)

What people are failing attend to is just how conservative Barone's projection of Clinton's popular vote win is in one key respect: he is NOT assuming that vote totals from either FL and MI are included in any way.

Of course, if FL is included, and in some fashion MI, those are game changers in terms of popular vote.

And the real wild card here is Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico has apparently enjoyed an astoundingly high voter participation rate in general -- roughly 80%. To me, it's pretty unthinkable that that electorate, given the heady prospect of being a decisive vote in the selection of the Democratic nominee of the mainland -- which I'd expect they must feel they want to have greater influence over if they can -- would not vote in the largest possible numbers. It seems to me that the estimate of  1,000,000 voters might be quite low, and a higher estimate nearer 2,000,000 might be more accurate.

And that vote might go massively toward Hillary, almost precisely because the Puerto Rican parties don't match up well with the traditional Democratic/Republican divide. I'd expect that because the pre-existing allegiances are not well defined, they could easily be influenced by crowd psychology and on the basis of such things as how their families in the mainland perceived Hillary and Obama. And certainly in the states, Hillary has won the lions share of the Puerto Rican vote.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a margin of 30 or 40 percent, under those conditions, and if the number of voters were indeed roughly 2,000,000, that would be a 600,000 to 800,000 margin for Hillary.

Anything coming close to such a result would indeed be a game changer in terms of the popular vote. And, while it's certainly the purest of speculation, the flexible, mostly undefined electoral conditions in Puerto Rico make such a scenario at least plausible.


by frankly0 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:31:45 PM EST

Re: (2.00 / 3)

Obama knows that he's peaked, his delegate and popular vote lead are probably only going to trend down from now on. So he's trying to force Hillary out of the race.

Obama's the likely nominee, but Hillary has a chance. Millions of voters haven't spoken yet, let them decide instead of trying of declaring a winner before the race has been won.


by liberalj on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:54:50 PM EST

Michael Barone (none / 0)

is also an openly admitted conservative. From his bio:

Barone is a senior writer for U.S. News & World Report and a frequent contributor during Fox News Channel's election coverage. His political views are generally conservative, and Barone has said he is not a religious believer, although he is sympathetic to and respectful of socially conservative believers.

Considering the wildly optimistic results he forecasts, this story can probably be put in the "let's help prolong the Democratic nomination fight as long as we can" box.

This will be over in June. And no matter how much it displeases the Fox News crowd, barring circumstances we can't forecast, Obama will be the nominee.

:-)


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 12:56:13 PM EST

Barone's high profile piece taps HRC momentum (2.00 / 3)

The numbers will vary a bit, these are predictions, of course, but BO's antidemocratic stalling on MI and FL are hurting him, HRC is becoming the more pro-democracy candidate, thus the pundits are sensing it and writing these kinds of predictions....

BO has been unable to don the front runner mantle, he can't lead or pull out ahead effectively.  He can't "heal" the divisions in the party.  So people are taking a second hard look at who is excercising fight and leadership and that is HRC.

Check out Talk left today discussing how BO blew it with Edwards.....

covered here:
http://nymag.com/news/politics/powergrid 45604


by Molee on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:01:37 PM EST

Re: Barone's high profile piece taps HRC momentum (none / 0)

Perhaps they are taking a second look and while doing it, Obama is extending his lead in the national polls against Clinton. See Gallup Poll today, Rasmussen Poll today.  There just doesn't seem like much evidence of this Clinton resurgence.


by StrangeAnomaly on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Barone is not predicting Clinton wins the PV (none / 0)

lets parse his words a little more closely.

"I used Cost's default turnout numbers and estimates of the two-candidate percentages which I consider optimistic from the Clinton point of view but not wildly unrealistic"

He is saying that Clinton has a chance to win the PV, not that she will win the PV.


by Mr Sifter on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:18:02 PM EST

Re: US News and World Report Prediction (2.00 / 2)

knowng chuck and knowing baron's - not so secret - secret...i doubt it .

but...
even though as a pundit, he's a total full of shit lying ass,

but he does try to be and is amazingly honest when he has his almanac of amer poliics editor hat  on..

tthse numbrssound crazy tto mee ttoo, butt hes noot mkg tthem up.

this is all gonna come down to fl and mi.

not revoting was THE obama blunder.

i suggest everybody read jeromes diary about this from thurs.  


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:30:14 PM EST

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (none / 0)

But if Hillary is the nominee, the MSM would cry like little babies


by NY Writer on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:32:21 PM EST

Stretch goals (2.00 / 1)

If the Clinton campaign is looking for a road map and some metrics that can be used to inspire the troops, here they are. If shooting for these numbers means Hillary win s IN by 17% instead of the 12% she might otherwise and wins WV by 35% instead of the 25% she might win otherwise then she continues to make the critical gains in both popular vote and pledged delegate count to get the attention of the SuperDelegates. These will also make for some fun talking points to rebut those who would prefer to call the game over before the clock has run out. As Bill Clinton says "don't you love a good fight?"


by pan230 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:32:51 PM EST

Pretty for Democrats (2.00 / 1)

If Clinton wins the nomination in a closely contested race.

Practically makes the Clinton/Obama "dream ticket" a foregone conclusion.

I don't think McCain can beat that, regardless of who his running mate is.  Anyway, I suspect it will be another Pale Male.


by Limelite on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:46:30 PM EST

Re: US News and World Report Prediction: Clinton w (none / 0)

If pigs had wings, they could fly.  :}


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:54:34 PM EST

It's not over. (2.00 / 1)

"With each of the upcoming 10 electoral events "She would be getting closer to the nomination, not farther away."

That's what I believe as well.  And I also believe that's the reason why Obama's surrogates have been calling for Hillary to quit.


by JoeySky18 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 03:18:07 PM EST


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