Clark and Obama - I don't get it, help me out?

Hello all,

I'm real confused. Clark's comments have engendered a wave of protest on sites like Kos and MyDD, as well as defenders.

I really don't understand what's so controversial about what he said.

First, let's be clear that there is a "swift-boat" style attack to be made here - that McCain only made it into Annapolis on his dad's coattails and other items such as the incident where his plane blew up while taking off. I've seen comments advocating this sort of approach, and I think it incredibly unwise - we do not need to go around demeaning McCain's service when he chose to refuse the chance to leave. Obama was playing word association when a reporter asked him about McCain. The word?

"Honorable."

Next is the tact that Clark used - that McCain served and served heroically, but that his time as a pilot, POW, and squadron leader doesn't contribute to his resume to be president - specifically, to his ability to make strategic and command decisions. Part of McCain's resume that he is putting forth to us the citizens is this military experience, and Clark is saying his time in the forces doesn't qualify him to be Commander in Chief.

Last, there is a strong view that Clark's words were out-of-bounds. Some said they were swift-boating, and others said they were inappropriate and played into McCain's hands. As God as my witness, I do not understand where this argument has a basis.

When Clark said that "Being shot down isn't a qualification to be President," you could hear Bob Schrieffer's surprise: "Really" was the word he used. Said Mika Brizinski: "But this is John McCain we're talking about."

I don't get it. Why is it high heresy to say that McCain's good character years ago doesn't qualify him to be President, when he was so wrong about Iraq? Why is this a "Third Rail," as Ben Smith said?\

Yes, he's sat on Armed Services forever. He's sent the budget over, and had hearings. But he hasn't ever been in the hotseat, and I don't understand why it seems to be sacrilege to suggest that he's more qualified in this area (especially for foreign relations) than Obama.

Help me out?



Display:


Re: Clark and Obama - I don't get it, help me out (1.75 / 4)

There is no fury. The fury is at the weak community organizer nominee we have.


by Makey on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:00:13 PM EST

Re: Clark and Obama - I don't get it, help me out (2.00 / 1)

What's weak are your attack on Obama.


by venician on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clark and Obama - I don't get it, help me out (1.50 / 4)

Monkey in cage. Monkey pick up poo, throw through bars?

Monkey need more poo?  

Head back to Noquarter, endless supplies over there?


My mom believed in Jesus, the Pope and FDR..... Just not necessarily in that order.
by WashStateBlue on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:08:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clark and Obama - I don't get it, help me out (2.00 / 2)

I wish we lived in a country where such self-evident truths could be spoken.  But we don't.  Obama actually has a good chance to have his cake and eat it too with this one.  Wesley Clark (widely respected military leader) can pick away at just how relevant McCain's experience is to being President.  It gets out there, people start to think about it and say "you know, maybe he's right".  At the same time Obama can play stand-up guy and distance himself from the remarks.  Then, when the debates roll around in the fall, people will listen to McCain's spiel about his military service and say "what a great American, but does this mean he would be a great President?"  instead of "Oh, there's that Obama.  What does he know about military service, anyhow?"

Politically, this was a no-brainer.  What it says about the present or the future of this country is a little more dicey.


by the mollusk on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:03:35 PM EST

Re: Clark and Obama - I don't get it, help me out (2.00 / 3)

All it suggests to me is that Democrats still haven't quite gotten out of campaign mode.  Can we agree the whole "rebuke and repudiate" thing during the primaries got more than a bit ridiculous?  (with people treating gaffes, misstatements, and even musings about matters which were slightly controversial, as potentially career-ending offenses?).  

I think Clark's comments were borderline (there's general acceptance for the idea that military service demonstrates someone's love of country, that's a qualification for the presidency).  Dems shouldn't be sniping at each other about this, though.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:22:22 PM EST

Re: Clark and Obama - I don't get it, help me out (2.00 / 1)

Look, Clark is right on the narrow merits of what he is saying; he is absolutely being factual and honest.

HOWEVER, Obama is not a person by inclination to even appear to be questioning something he reveres (military service) without reservations.

They are coming from very different places to the issue, there is no meeting point on this one.  But since he is the nominee, Gen. Clark should defer to him on how to conduct the campaign.


Don't let the Thugs define Sen. Obama: Fight the Smears
by DraftChickenHawks on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:30:04 PM EST

factual correction (2.00 / 1)

according to Clark McSAME was not a squadron leader during combat - only in non-combat training


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:40:20 PM EST

Not to worry Barack has not wasted any time (none / 0)

and has thrown clark under the bus!


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 03:02:15 PM EST

OK, here's what I think is at stake (none / 0)

McCain, whatever else he is or is not, is a war hero for the torture he endured without giving in.  

And 'swiftboating', the act of lying about someone, especially a military hero, for political gain, is viewed badly, even by some of the swiftboaters, believe it or not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/us/pol itics/30swift.html

Regardless of what they thought of Mr. Kerry, many Swift boat veterans objected to the attacks.

"It was unconscionable," said Stan Collier, who served as an officer in charge on a boat based in Qui Nhon. "I thought those boys struck a new low."

Mr. Collier considers himself a conservative and did not agree with Mr. Kerry's politics, but he voted for him to protest the Swift boat campaign. "We've all been attributed to the sleaziness that those guys assigned to Kerry," he said. "I think we've all been demeaned."

Going after McCain in the way that Clark did may well not go down all that well with many veterans.

Granted, McCain was not a squadron commander or higher, but he did serve in a war and knows what that is like.  Not all military men would make a good commander in chief, and not all non-military men would make a bad one.  However, McCain has more military experience than Obama, for sure.

Additionally, it's the usual Rovian tactic to go at a person's strength, and this is McCain's.  Clark & Obama risk having it said they learned at the feet of the master in this case.  Coupled with Obama's claim of a 'new politics', this might, or might not cause a problem.  We can only wait and see.

 However, McCain is no Kerry, and like Obama when Obama had negative stuff thrown at him, has been quick to respond, and to keep responding.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsm emo.com/2008/06/surprise_mccain_camp_kee ps_hit.php


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 03:07:36 PM EST

I guess I do not understand the last (none / 0)

sentence in your diary.  Is that what you meant to say?

IMO, being shot down doesn't qualify you to be president, but all the other things he did are part of the qualification for being Pres to those who think serving your country is important.  McCain is only human, he is not perfect and his character was lacking in some circumstances (his first divorce IMO) and not in others.
He has more experience than Obama in many areas and being wrong on Iraq may be important to you, but to others he was/is right and to still others it doesn't matter weighed against some other considerations.  
You are speaking to the choir here.  But to many other people, Obama's lack of experience is a problem.


by Teacher1956 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:06:40 PM EST

Re: I guess I do not understand the last (none / 0)

No, nothing he did in the military qualifies as skills that a president can use, except for a humane way to treat captured combatants (i.e, torture, which McCain has flip-flopped on for the worse ).  McCain is not the nice guy we all think he is/was.  He is a bully, he is rash, he is not intelligent, and is appears to severly overreact and immediately go into fisticuffs, possibly due to some PTSD from being tortured for years.  

He is a war hero, so he gets kudos for that, but he didn't do anything except fly a plane in the military, and not very well.  Obviously, he has more "military experience" than Obama but that doesn't and shouldn't mean that he has more leadership or presidential qualities than Obama.  If McCain were an outstanding general/commanding officer leading the ground troops in successful battles, then maybe his military career would be relevant, but I truly think it isn't.

But hey, the average voter doesn't know jack shit about anything so a war hero automatically = president skills and if you try to argue against that in any way, even completely reasonable, (and the war hero is GOP and not an effete windsurfer Dem) then you get fucked by eveyone, because everyone in general is a fucking moron who thinks that wearing flag pins is a requirement for patriotism.    That's why it is a big deal, because critical thinking is no longer a common trait in the average American citizen.


by KLRinLA on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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